Mission Statement

This blog is to be an educational tool as well as a source of info on the Pa elk, their habitat, and the hunt. It's was also necessary for clearing up alot of uninformed views about the elk hunt and the management plan for the elk herd itself. Negative thoughts are little to worry about but when they become comments and are shouted from the roof tops by people that have a clouded view of something and very little understanding of it, it is not only your right but your duty to correct what is wrong and be a voice for science, fact, and truth.

Sunday, December 13, 2009

For my first blog I would just like to welcome anyone that shares my interest, not necessarily my opinion, on the items listed in the descriptions of myself and my blog. After following along with several blogs concerning the Pa elk hunt I felt it was important to express the thoughts and facts behind a pro-elk hunt persons feelings. Though I'm sure it is not done intentionally alot of the statements made from the people that have a problem with the elk hunt are unsubstantiated and made out of anger or fear instead of fact. Hopefully the same passion that you have for the elk will allow you to open your mind to another point of view and let this blog educate you to the point that you have more of the facts than you do now. Maybe then you will be able to make a more enlightened opinion concerning the elk, their habitat, and the benefits that the hunt does for both.

Jack
12/14/09

32 comments:

  1. Do you know who Fred Jr. is? If so, what do you think of him?
    Also, does it concern you if Benezette thrives as a town, or will your business go on either way?

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  4. Jack

    I also grew up in northcentral Pa and spent most of my young life learning animals and wildlife habits. I look forward to having adult to adult conversations and/or written exchanges with you about the PA elk hunt. I have traveled widely hunting and have done all of it in fair chase. I have hunted elk, sheep, moose, grizzly bears, black bears, white tail deer, mule deer, Quebec Labrador Caribou, Barren Ground Caribou, Wild Turkey, grouse, pheasants, coyotes-just to name a few of the items I have hunted. I have closely observed the behavior of the Pa Elk in the area surrounding Benezette and it appears we see the situation very differently. I hope that we can be open minded and be able to learn from each other. The videos I have viewed from Elk County Outfitters on Youtube have only strengthened my views of teh Pa Elk Hunt. The comments made by one of your staff in resposne to comments of others on the video were unprofessional and I would hope that those individuals have been advised by you appropriately to refrain from such behavior. Some of the statements could be taken as terroistic threats.

    Respectfully
    Jim Borden

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  5. Jack,

    Again I welcome you to the world of wildlife blogging and look forward to constructive dialog concerning the management of our elk herd and other resources as well.

    As I have pointed out repeatedly the situation can be a win-win for both the tourist and the hunting industry. Many of the worst abuses have been addressed-at least to a certain extent and the hunting industry would have to give up little more to make the situation much more acceptable to the non-consumptive type user.

    I must on the whole agree with your mission statement, but there is one great trap in that statement.

    Each of us view a subject through a prism colored by our life experiences,education, and personal interests. That being said people of equal intelligence, etc. can arrive at entirely different outlooks on a situation. I have a strong background in land management, law-enforcement, and at one time was a dedicated hunter, yet I arrive at somewhat different conclusions about elk management than you do. Does this mean that either of us has a clouded view of the situation or very little understanding of it? I don't think so! I think it is because we are viewing the situation from different perspectives as to what the primary purpose of the elk herd should be.

    I think the elk herd on Winslow Hill and nearby areas in particular should be managed for tourist purposes. I have not voiced objections to hunting in The Quehanna Wild Area, etc.

    Why do the large acclimated bulls on Winslow Hill have to be targeted?

    What is wrong with having a substantial acclimated herd of elk for tourism purposes, while elk hunting is done in the more remote areas?

    These are the questions that I and many others view as valid concerns.

    Willard Hill

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  6. Welcome aboard Jack

    The others have stated our position well so I will take this opportunity to welcome you into this wonderful realm of outdoor blogging and thank you for following Country Captures and Support Pa Elk.

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  7. To Marci,
    I know the bull that you speak of, in fact I have enjoyed watching that bull's life from its begining. I am in my twenty-eighth year of exploring the areas in and around Benezette and have watched that bull as well as the town go through their transformations into what people see now. Believe me the change has not been for the better and it is only going to get worse. The lives of the majority of people in and around that community would not change one bit if the elk were suddenly not there at all. The few that would make noise would be the select few that make money off of the elk. Are there people that live there that love and enjoy seeing the elk everyday? Of course, but they are the minority. You would be amazed at how many people tell you flat out that they wish "they would just shoot them all". The elk can be destructive to people's property but, the elk are also usually paying the price for the countless people that tresspass, block the roads, and have no respect of personal property. People are the only ones that do that not the elk.
    As for your second part of your comment, I absolutely love Benezette and the small towns that surround it. Alot of the memorable times and experiences of my life have taken place there. This touches on one of the subjects that really bother me about the anti-elk hunt thought process. These communities were supported by hunters long before one "elk viewer" ever heard of Elk County. There is a local store that for the first few years of the elk hunt did some mind blowing things to try to stop or deter the hunt. They had petitions, they posted land (the problem with that was they posted land that was not theirs and was not to be posted), they used mega-phones, bait, and even tried to chase or herd the elk to keep them where you could not hunt. As over the top and illegal as that is I would have no problem with it except that they would sell Pa elk hunt videos, sell snacks, etc. to elk hunters and guides, rent camping space to an elk hunt outfitter....they put the almighty dollar ahead of their so called "cause".
    I personally have a contracting business that is my form of paying the bills. So financially if the elk hunt were to end today it would help my bottom line because believe it or not the elk hunt is not a money making endeavor, yearly you hope it is a break even endeavor. But I will go into more detail about this issue while answering some of the other questions.
    Thank you
    Jack

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  8. To Heather,
    You bring up a aspect of the elk hunt that I know most people have a very distorted view of and that is the money aspect of the guided elk hunts. There are pages of licensed elk guides (individuals that pay twenty-five dollars to the state for a guide permit) but of all those names on that list there are only six groups that take hunters year in and year out. Some of these guides-outfitters take one hunter some take multiple. Most of the successful elk hunt permit recipients don't even have a clue what the costs are until we talk to them. Most people have thoughts of a guided elk hunt out west that costs a small fortune.
    From your comment "The week prior to this years hunt, I met a gentleman that was pulled for an antlerless tag. He and his wife were out scouting in Zone 2 so we ran into them quite a few times throughout the day. At one point he explained that he was scouting for himself because a guide was going to cost between $4,000-$5000 and he was not willing to pay that for "just a cow." He said that he heard Zone 2 was full of "easy kills" and he only took the trip out there to see what the terrain was like so he knew what to pack."
    So let's clear this up the first year that I guided was 2002 the second year of the elk hunt. I wanted to be a part of this special hunt so badly that I charged $100.00/ day for the guiding, lodging, meals, and getting the animal out. I (we) took four hunters that year. As we did this year to year we got better and I got a family that couldn't afford me footing the bill for other peoples elk hunt, no matter how badly I wanted to be involved. In 2008 we guided eight bull hunters. For the hunters that stayed with us we charged $1,500.00. That included: 8 nights stay with us, all meals during that time, guiding, getting the animal out of the woods, and most of the time skinning, caping and getting the meat into pieces that people could manage to get home. I want to be clear that it is not just people that are against the elk hunt but some times hunters themselves that I hear talking about all the money that the guides-outfitters are making. If someone wants to hunt on their own for the satisfaction of doing it on their own I applaud you, but I will debate anyone that unless you physically live in the unit your tag is drawn for you can't do adequate scouting and prep work let alone feed and house yourself for less than that. Also, I do not know what the other guys are charging but I do know that we are all in the same ball park. So the $4,000.00- $5,000.00 that this guy commented to you about, he either had no idea or was pulling your leg.
    As for the comment this man made to you about only having a cow tag, that is awful, it is also the thinking that year in and year out send hunters home empty handed with cow tags. In alot of the units the cows are harder to come by then the bulls. I have nothing but disgust for comments that give one species or life more worth than another, but that is for another blog in the future.
    Thank you
    Jack

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  9. Jack,
    My point about Fred is that, in the past few years, we have lost a lot of our larger acclimated bulls due to the hunt. It takes 6 to 7 years for a bull to reach "monster" status. The way the large bulls are targeted each year, we will no longer have monster bulls. And, the herd will not be as healthy and strong, because all of the best animals are targeted and killed each year. That is what we are trying to stop. Monster bulls should be saved, not just for tourism, but for the health of the herd in general.
    I still feel that the human acclimated elk are targeted because it's an easy kill. No one has to do any work in order to kill an amazing bull. In my eyes, that is wrong. This is a hunt, and you need to get back to the real meaning of the word.
    As far as Benezette goes, I agree that it is only going to get worse once the visitors center opens. I fear that Benezette will lose it's small town appeal.
    Yes, I agree, business owners are the ones who profit the most from tourism, but I still feel that the town would lose a lot of money and jobs if people didn't come to the area.
    Many towns surrounding Benezette (where I'm sure some of the residents work and make a living) get a lot of their revenue from the elk.
    Don't take this the wrong way, but, I know a lot of people who dream of living in Benezette, so if the residents don't like it there, they are free to move away.
    I won't go into detail, but as we drive around town, I see a big sign that MANY people like having the elk around.....they really promote them coming into their yards. They even go against the law in order to have the elk in their yards. So we all see things differently and that is fine.
    Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.
    When you have time, would you please respond to the 12-13-09 post on http://supportpaelk.blogspot.com I am very interested in finding out how you feel about that.

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  10. In your comment you say "Support PA Elk group, the mission was to restructure the no-kill zone to help eliminate the bulls tainted by inevitable human interaction given their location." What do you mean by eliminate the bulls? Are there no cows tainted by human interaction? The week the season is held has been bumped forward two different times. The first few years of the hunt the season was the week before Thanksgiving. Then they moved ahead a week, after a few seasons that way they moved to the week that it is now. This has hurt the hunt and you are now taking bulls in zones that they do not live in. The end result being you shoot a elk that lives in zone 4 but you shoot him in zone 2. That does tend to throw the science of it out the window in my book. But the thing to remember here is the elk are not fenced in and you can't always count on a wild animal to move by a clock or calendar.
    As far as my own personal feeling about hunting in zone 2 or other zones with issues (10, almost all private land) I don't always get to pick who calls us to help them with their hunts. I prefer to hunt in zones 7, 8, and 9 mainly because almost all public ground, hunt all day and never see a property line. Do I feel the same about the taking of a elk in zone 2 as I do a deer or bear? I think this brings up another misconception about the elk. They are not deer, they don't act the same, they don't react the same. I'm not just talking about Pa elk but about all elk. Everyone, hunter or not knows whitetail deer, people think that elk are going to be the same jumpy, high strung animal as a deer. They are not, it is just not their every day behavior...let alone when you see them in the rut.Years ago I would have said yes that I see them as the same, now I get more excited over the elk. Mostly because I'm helping someone in what to me is the hunt of a lifetime.
    Thank you
    Jack

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  11. Jack

    Thanks for the way your addressing the issues and comments.
    There is one item that you stated that I completely disagree with-elk are not jumpy like whitetail deer. That statement is true in PA, but not in Montana, Colorado, Idaho, New Mexico or Arizona. I have been around them there--I have hunted them in Montana and Idaho and their behavior is as jumpy as a whitetail or even jumpier in true back country. One of the issues with the PA Elk is genetics. They have grown up unafraid of humans. There is nothing that you and I can do about that. One of my greatest concerns about the PA hunt is the adverse impressions of hunters that non-hunters get. The comments on the youtube video and then the followup up youtube video on Support Elk that was vulgar and offensive portrays a side of the hunting industry that I have always hoped is a minority. But broadcasting videos of it and making the threatening comments that were made often gets all of us that are or have been hunters labeled inappropriately.

    I hope that one day you and I can meet and talk about our views and experiences in person.

    Jim

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  12. Jack,

    In reference to your response to Marci on 12/14/09 at 9:33: what is the source for your quote "Support PA Elk group, the mission was to restructure the no-kill zone to help eliminate the bulls tainted by inevitable human interaction given their location"

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  13. Willard it was stated in my post. When I spoke to Marci about Support PA Elk, it was the understanding that the first order of business was to attempt to eliminate the areas in and around the viewing areas to help protect the elk that had become overly acclimated to humans given their time spent there. It was not a mission statement, just my understanding of the possible solution.

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  14. Hello again Jack, on a lighter side of all the elk talk, I did want to say that I had read a great post on huntingpa.com about the hunt in Zone 7 which is an excellent example of the importance of guides. I'm sure you've read it at http://www.huntingpa.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1430008&fpart=1 but I do want you to know I believe your work is important in the safety and success of the hunt as it stands.

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  15. I'm a little confused about all of the statements above. To clear up my personal views: I want all human-acclimated elk to be protected....bull or cow, I care about them both. They can't help but become acclimated due to the high volume of visitors each year. It's not their fault. They shouldn't been killed just because they trust us.
    I am still waiting to see a response on the supportpaelk blog from you on the 12-13-09 post. Until that happens, I am done with this conversation. It is very important for you to respond to those horrible words and threats.

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  16. To all posters,
    You guys are going to have to give me some time to catch up. This blogging thing is new to me and I don't know my way around this yet. For instance I was responding to Heather's questions and in the middle of trying to post I recieved a comment from Marci and half of what I had typed just disappeared. The whole thing was to long (which I didn't know was possible) so I broke it in half, cut and saved the second half and was submitting the first half when the comment came through and wiped out my post. I was able to post the second half which was not correctly headed, but it was to Heather's post. Please bear with me. I will get to all the comments as quickly as possible. Sorry I haven't answered your question yet Marci but I will.
    Thank you
    Jack

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  17. To Heather,
    This is the first half of the post on Dec 14 @ 11:25pm.
    To start to address the issues that you guys have with zone 2 involves many different points.
    Let's look at two bulls that were taken this year. The 9x8 that is all over the Sup Pa Elk blog was taken in zone 2. But this was not this bulls core or home area. This bull has for the past several years spent the majority of his time aprox. 12-15 air miles from the elk viewing areas on Winslow Hill. He wintered, shed, bachelored, grew his new horns and even rutted in 08 this far from the no hunt zone.
    In a post on Pa Wildlife Photographer blog it states:
    In this case the animal was photographed during the peak of the rut and persons were able to walk about freely in front of him. All of the persons involved were seasoned outdoorsmen and did not intrude on the animals personal space so as to cause him to alter his behavior.


    17-40mm lens at 17mm-Bull in Center of Photo

    17-40mm at 40mm



    70-200mm at 200mm: Note photographer's out of focus shoulder in lower left of photo


    It would have been possible to kill this animal from long range with a rifle or to walk to within spear range of him. At that point in time, it would have been possible to walk to almost any distance one chose. * Did he turn into an elusive, cunning animal in a few short weeks?
    You could say the same thing in reverse. Did this bull get acclimated to humans in the few short weeks he spent on Winslow Hill out of five and a half years of life?
    The other bull is the 11x9 taken mid week in zone three. This bull and another have spent the last several years out near Sinnemahoning State Park. This is very well documented with all the photos and publicity these two elk got. This area is in the neighborhood of 20 + air miles from the no hunt zone yet these bulls traveled yearly for the rut to Winslow Hill. The fact that they were collared elk lets one be sure of this. Looking at these two cases one would have to wonder how big of a no hunt zone would you need? (continued)

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  18. The elk biologists that study the elk daily, year round have changed and fined tuned the hunt zones, the tag allotments for cows and bulls, and the number of tags. This wasn't set in stone in 2001 and that was that. The elk hunt and the management plan is constantly being reviewed and worked on. One thing that always needs to be remembered here is that hunting is what pays the bill for the biologists and the work they do to insure the health of the herd. Without the hunt we (guides, outfitters, and the elk hunters) would not be able to take the blood, lung, liver, and brain samples that are tested off of every elk, every year that go towards making sure we all have elk to enjoy.
    I just scrolled up to see if I answered all of your points and see your posts have been removed. I hope that I did not offend you or any of the other members of Sup Pa Elk for that is certainly not my objective and I look forward to continuing these discussions with all of you.
    Thank you,
    Jack

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  19. Response to Marci's post on 12/14/09 @ 9:33 pm
    Actually a bull elk does not reach maturity (peak antler growth) til aprox. 9 1/2 - 10 1/2 years of age. Believe me when I tell you this we have way more mature bulls now then we ever have since the reintroduction of the elk. They may not all be standing around on Winslow Hill but there are more now than ever.
    As far as the hunt goes, actually the majority of bulls taken yearly are sub-par. They are not a true representative of what is available here in Pa to harvest during the hunt. The problem or better yet the reason for this is a lack of knowledge of what is out there and the inability of hunters to hold off for truly mature bulls. I continue to use the word mature and not trophy because to the untrained eye even a good 3 1/2 let alone a 4 1/2 year old bull is extremely impressive to look at.
    So to your statement that we are losing our monster bulls each year to the hunt, it can appear that way to someone that doesn't really know what a monster bull is. As far as the 6 - 7 year olds you are missing the age range by a couple years. This years hunt for example there were at most 5 bulls 6 years old and up. That leaves 14 bulls that were not near their mature status. How does one say we are losing all our monster bulls when during this years hunt we took three elk that grossed scored over 400" (2 taken out of our camp) and in the previous 8 years there have been 2 combined to hit the 400" mark. Believe me Marci take a ride, get away from the crowds of Winslow Hill and see what is really running around up there.
    As far as the amount of work that goes into one of these elk hunts I would not expect you to be able to understand, simply because you aren't involved with the hunt. But don't tell me it is easy when you don't have any experience with that aspect of elk herd.
    As for the overall health of the herd what you need to think about is we should be harvesting the bulls once they reach the mature status, taking to many 3 1/2, 4 1/2, and 5 1/2 year olds is what will turn into less bulls for people to see down the road. So yes, I (we) target the mature bulls because that is the age bracket you want your elk to come out of to maintain a health herd.
    I'm going to look at the post you referred me to now and will be back to you shortly.
    Thank you
    Jack

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  20. Jack
    Your listing the camera lens info confirms how close the photos were taken. Individual out of focus in lower left is due to the f stop used to give shallow depth of field.

    The elk in PA are all very acclimated to humans. They have not grown up with a fear of humans.

    You still have not addressed how you feel about the comments your guides have been posting on you tube. Seems that you are ignoring the situation.

    I was in deer camp (a camp that was built by my grandfather in 1927 and a Pa Elk was killed by the crew there in 1926) this past weekend and the crew there (seasoned PA Hunters) all are concerned about the PA Elk Hunt. There are a large number of hunters in the area I live in that are also concerned about the PA Elk Hunt. The situation came to their attention primarily from the airing of an Elk Hunt ON PA Outdoors last fall. Most of the individuals have also viewed the Back Country videos on youtube and Have been turned off to the Pa Elk hunt due to the videos. Your guides and the videos are doing your business no favors.

    Jim

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  21. Thank you for informing me about the ages of mature elk. I have always been told that 6 to 7 years is when the antlers become impressive, so I guess I stated that incorrectly.
    So if 9 1/2 to 10 1/2 is when they reach peak status, then we will never see anything like that, if the hunt continues this way. All bulls are taken before they hit their peak, and I think that steals a wonderful viewing experience from tourists. I realize you do not like tourists so that doesn't concern you.
    Also, we depend on the Winslow Hill area because we cannot afford to stay more than a few days. So we do not have time to drive in the back country to find these huge bulls you are referring to. The 9x8's antlers were plenty big enough for our taste and we will miss seeing him.
    Aside from the 9x8's "home base", there are a couple elk that I have in mind that stay in the area we are trying to save. They have become like Fred Jr. to a lot of people. It would be a shame to lose these two bulls next year.
    I see that you still have not commented on the Support PA Elk blog. You now have yet another post to respond to. First, the 12-13 post and then the 12-16 post. Are these two individuals associated with you? If so, you will lose your credibility if people find out that you allow this behavior.

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  22. Jack,

    Interesting information you have shared in your comments here, thank you. A couple of question pops to my mind after reading this dialog.

    1 I understand what you are saying about the many hunters settling for good 5-6 year old bulls as I am sure that many if not most are more interested in taking a good bull to mount and not overly concerned with trying to place an animal in the record books. Do you know what the average ages of the bulls taken in the early years of the hunt were?
    2 I well realize that hunting the Pa elk can present a degree of difficulty. With the timing of the hunt taking place after the rut and most bugling having ceased the animals in the back country could be challenging to locate even if their degree of fear for humans is not that of deer. Of course after taking an animal, depending upon the location, I am sure it can be very challenging to get it out. My question is how do the elk react to hunters & guides during the hunting season in those areas well away from Winslow Hill. On a scale of 1-10 with one being that of domestic livestock and a 10 that of a public land whitetail buck where in your opinion do the elk fall?
    3 In the case of the 9x8 that was taken on Winslow Hill, you stated that this animal’s core range was 12-15 air miles away from Winslow Hill. We all know that bulls grow new antlers each year and do change in appearance just as we do with age. As this was not a collared bull was their some particular unique characteristic that set him apart making him easily recognizable by someone familiar with him?

    Thank you for your time,
    Coy

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  23. To all,
    I can not honestly form a opinion based on what is posted in this exchange due to the fact that I do not have the entire conversation, videos, whatever. I do not know if it is my elementary blogging skills or what, but that exchange is hard to follow. Is there two or three people involved? Who is show hide? The first statement in the exchange on 12/13 takes a low blow at the hunt, the hunters, and the guides, I do know that.
    I'm not going to speak for someone about their thoughts and feelings. I will say this, both sides are heated and probably stem from deep passion about their side of this debate. The other thing I hope everyone that has voiced their negative views about the elk hunt realize is I personally have been following all of your blogs for some time and it is very hard to bite one's tongue when personal opinion and half truths are preached as gospel. A person can only listen to so much before they blow. Let's be honest the comments from you guys (Sup Pa Elk) always come around to the same few items.
    The statements that involve the guide aspect of your argument are that we are all about the money, its easy, we are a joke and a sham, there is no work that goes into the hunt, etc. How long do you expect someone to listen to that without saying something? I know the things I have read make me cringe and really make my blood boil when the comments are sheer opinion and can't be backed up by fact. Maybe I'm wrong because I dwell on it before stating my feelings, maybe the guys that speak their mind and don't hold back are right, they probably have less stress at least. Eric and Jarrad McCarthy both guide with me as well as work with me everyday in our actual jobs. They are good guys that have as deep a passion and love for the outdoors as anyone. They would rather spend a day in the woods than anywhere and believe it or not it doesn't have to be with a gun or bow in hand. People can question my thoughts, observations, and opinions, on the elk herd and the hunt all they want. But one thing that is undebatable is these guys along with everyone that guides out of our camp (this year we had 23 licensed guides) and the other outfitters and guides that I know, nobody is in it for the money!
    Jack (cont)

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  24. Willard, I know you have made a video and have it for sell on line and in and around Benezette. I have edited and work with my video enough to know the time that went into yours has to be overwelming. I'm sure no matter how much success you have selling it you would need to sell alot more copies to make money based on the hours you have put into it.
    I also hear time and again about the elk around Winslow Hill and keeping this area for tourists only and continuing the hunt in the more remote hunt zones. Does that mean all the rest of the hunt zones should be off limits to tourists? Would you like to be told that you take the easy way by only videoing the elk that live in and around Benezette? The same could be said for all your whitetail vid. and pics. Wouldn't you like to get somewhere that you don't have to crop a picture to not show a building, power line, road, etc.? Wouldn't you like to video elk without having to worry about muting the sound of people talking or cars running?
    You guys question my comments about there being more mature bulls now then ever before and the fact that there are less to see around the no hunt zone. The answer to both of these questions is the same. This is how much good the elk hunt is doing for the health of the herd. What it took people 70 years to do to the elk, the hunt is reversing in just a few. I'm not even sure which one of you made the comment that it is in the elk's genes to not fear humans. I do not know how anyone could say that with a straight face. This would be the equivalent of saying that every murderer, rapist, thief, gay, straight, etc. is predetermined. That society has no effect on anything. If we took a Pa elk calf and took it out west it would walk up to the first person it saw, are you serious?
    The bottom line is this,the elk use a larger area then we are ever going to have as a no hunt zone. So no matter what we do to the no hunt zone there are going to be elk that people are going to see repeatedly, that get taken every year during the hunt. Maybe the most important thing here to remember is this hunt is a legal hunt and if people really have a problem with it the people to talk to are the Pa Game Comm. Just remember to have a better way to manage the elk herd ready to present to them. One that does the same that the current one does now..... strengthen and help the herd to be better and healthier than it is today.
    Thank you
    Jack

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  25. To Marci, (post on 12/ 16/ 09)
    By harvesting bulls that have not met their peak(antler growth or maturity) we are constantly putting a large portion of bulls into the next age bracket. The thing to remember here is the small number of elk being taken each year. If we have twenty bull tags a year and twenty five percent are say 6 1/2 years old and older.Let's say that the remaining percent of the harvest is divided up over 3 1/2, 4 1/2, and 5 1/2 year olds we are not taking enough elk to ever hurt the herd. This break down will also mean there is always bulls moving up to the next age level. What you have to realize is there are not just twenty bulls running around out there. How can anyone say that all the big mature bulls are gone when during this years hunt there were three bulls that surpassed the 400" mark taken?
    Also, please from now on don't mis-quote me, I never said I don't like tourists. In fact I bring many new people to the elk range every year to view the elk and see the area in and around Benezette. Please read my previous comment to see the answers to your questions about the videos and comments from the other gentlemen.
    Thank you
    Jack

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  26. To Coy, (post 12/17/09)
    To question one I will do some math with the paper work that I have and get back to you . One thing I can say about this is there has never been a year where one age range or bracket was overly represented in the harvest.
    To number two, I have never tried to hunt domestic live stock so I can't compare but I have experienced whitetails in the rut that didn't have a care in the world. I have had experiences with the same elk as different as night and day. Believe it or not there are elk in Pa that if the wind is wrong they are gone you don't see them. I think the reason that attributes to the high success rate on the elk here in Pa are the elk are not acclimated as much as thery are habituated. The elk have circuitous patterns that year to year do not change much within a fewdays to weeks. What I meen by that is this, under normal circumstances (food, water, temp, etc) if a bull sheds his horns in a certain spot on March 10th the following year he will drop those horns closely to the same area and closely to the same date. This pattern holds true on most aspects of their life. What that translates into is yearly we (guides, outfitters) don't start from scratch with our scouting but build on the knowldege of all that we have learned from the previous year and the year before that and so on.Taking that into consideration I would say that the first few years that I was involved with the hunt the majority of the zones the hunts on a scale of 1 - 10 were a 6 and now they are an 8-9. But you can have a bull that acts flighty and does not put up with human interference at all one day and the next you see him at a differnet foodplot six miles away and there are six cars watching the food plot. This last observation is tied into your question three. Of course collared elk are easier to identify but elk once they hit that three and a half age and especially by four and a half have developed characteristics that help identify them from year to year. A sticker point here, a spilt tine, wide, tight, long, drop tine, once present uually stay true year to year unless injury or trauma takes place. The hardest elk to identify are the big typical 6 x 6's and 7 x 7's which we seem to be growing more and more of. Also, there are other ways to identify, broken ears, different colored patches of fur, a noticable limp, etc.
    Thank you,
    Jack

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  27. Jack
    I am the one that said it is in their genes---you should do as you suggest-do research prior to posting comments and devaluing an opinion that is not your own.

    The cows do not teach the young in Pa to fear humans-they have no reason to.

    You have cautiously side stepped the comments made by your guides and your statements actually imply that you agree with their comments. I have hunted for more years than you are old and my knowledge of animals and their behaviors is based on observation, study and science. I am a scientific person and base my conclusions on facts and science.

    At the present time it seems that your emotions for your side business (Elk Guiding) has clouded your ability to have an exchange that provides the ability for both sides of an issue to learn from each other.

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  28. Jim
    Your response agains makes no sense. You don't have to teach something that is in your genes, it is in there before you take your first breath. Plus as the hunt continues, what you are saying is that the cows will then teach the calves to fear humans. Correct? A cow elk does not teach it's calf to lay still when danger (any danger) approaches, in fact the cow moves away from the calf. This would cause the calf to try to run off with the mother if it were not born with the instinct to hide. The cow no more teaches the calf instinct, then it does paint those spots on the calf as soon as it is born.
    I did address the comments made by the two guys that guide with me and I agree with their thoughts on the elk hunt,how they state their opinions is up to them. Do you agree with everything said by the other people that have problems with the Pa elk hunt?
    You fabricate custom rifles is this correct? Do you agree with many people that say that rifles capable of shooting elk and other game at great distances should also be considered non-fair chase? Do you know first hand that everyone that buys one of your rifles practices with it to become proficient at shooting at animals at those great ranges? Is this ethical for someone that does it repeatedly let alone someone that doesn't? Are you resposible for al those people and do you share all the same views of them? You say that you are a "scientific person" are you arguing that the Pa elk have had a genetic drift and their instinct to fear humans has gone extinct? Pleas refer me to what scientific study you got that information from.
    What are you implying with "I have hunted for more years than you are old ..."?
    Thank you,
    Jack

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  29. With Christmas just a few days away, I hope everybody can take a moment to appreciate the herd we have for all interests involved here. We all share a great love of these animals, only in different ways, but it is possible to keep these posts factual and less about nit-picking at each other. The problem about blogging as opposed to face-to-face conversation is that things can be misconstrued or insignificant comments by the author are blown out of proportion - both sides of this debate are guilty, myself included.

    In my opinion, the opening of this visitors center is going to be "bad" for ALL of us. The hunters are going to catch a ton of flack from tourists that really know nothing on the subject and the photographers favorite spots to shoot are going to be crowded with noisy, inconsiderate visitors as well. Both the hunt and the documentation and education on these elk are crucial to keeping them healthy... with an overpopulation we get disease and human safety concerns, while without interest funding will diminish resulting in loss of food plots and other resources. This dialog should be less about which is more important and more about how they can work cohesively.

    On another note, I had a pleasant exchange with one of the guides in question in a more personal forum and his love and passion for what he does is clear. His responses to the comments on YouTube were inappropriate and he acknowledges that privately. I know some would like an apology or an explanation, but I don't feel he owes us that because we are all entitled to our own opinions and I personally will never say I'm sorry for how I feel. I will not be posting any parts of our conversation but will say that the responses on YouTube are not indicative of the person I spoke with.

    We can either continue to dwell on irrelevant aspects of each post here or we can exchange ideas constructively on a possible solution that suits all. I think we should start fresh, maybe begin a new post and start presenting ideas leaving the irrelevant criticism out.

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  30. In addition to my comment about the guide above, when I say "his love and passion for what he does is clear" I am referring to his love and passion for guiding. After re-reading I could see where this could be mis-interpreted, just validating my other comment about bogging in the first paragraph.

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  31. To Heather,
    Well said and a early Merry Christmas to everyone if in the hustle and bustle of the next few days keep me away from the computer.
    Thank you,
    Jack

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  32. Jack,

    Thank you for answering my questions and I am hoping you can find the info on the ages of the harvested animals. I know I have read it as it was released but I didn’t keep copies.

    Concerning your response to Willard insinuating the filming of trusting animals, speaking for myself the animals I photograph and display on Country Captures for the most part are trusting animals. Some animals like deer can learn to trust certain individuals while others like turkeys will learn to trust particular locations. Photographing hunted populations with a fear factor consistent with public land whitetails is nearly impossible.

    To make a good photograph of course you must have the animal at a close distance, even with the biggest lenses on the market. Then you must be able to maneuver the tripod and perhaps yourself to properly position for the best advantage with the prevailing light. Once everything does come together the sound of the shutter at close range will send some animals fleeing.

    I'm sure that from following our blogs you will find frequent reference to photographing whitetails in Shenandoah National Park. Hunting has not been legal since the park was formed. Whitetails there are acclimated to human presence, a condition that we do not try to hide but instead something that we point out to those reading our blogs. Many other wildlife photographs I display on my blog I do not list the location, this is precisely because sufficient protection is not available for these animals and I am concerned that someone will exploit the situation either legally or illegally.

    It may come as a surprise to you that many of the wildlife photographs that you see in hunting & nature magazines are either shot in protected areas or in pens, a fact that most photographers do not try to hide.

    I am always amused when someone viewing my work asked "could you have shot it", of course! There is no comparison between a rifle and a camera. There are few areas outside of private lands in our state where quality big game photography is productive. The elk of Winslow Hill are truly an exception an to make them so wild as to take flight upon realizing that a human is in the area would destroy the value that myself and many others find in them.

    Merry Christmas to you and yours,
    Coy

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